Beneteau First 235 Forums

[david]

Hi All,
My name is Dave and I'm up in Beaverton, ON, Canada.
I am very interested in an F235 and have been inquiring into the Rusalka, which is sitting on the hard in Annapolis, MA
I've been trying to locate a trailer and alternatively looking into having her transported here and finding a trailer locally.
A bit about me. I am 38 years old and have never owned a sailboat larger than 12 feet. But my parents had a 28ft edel when I was growing up.
When I saw a First 235 for the first time, I knew.
I am open to any and all your advice when it comes to this my first boat purchase.
Rusalka, as seen in the 'wanted F235' thread seems to be in good shape and the price seems right at 10 000.
Is it unwise of me to consider a purchase like this 'sight unseen' ?
I have no experience with marine surveys, what do they consist of?
Thanks,
Dave

[Chris Wild]

Hi Dave,
I live down in Richmond Hill and if I wasn't dropping the boat on my trailer next week I would have lent you mine.
Before I bought Wild Thing I was thinking of Lake Simco as a home for her. In the end I decided that LO would be better as getting to the boat for an evening sail would be faster.
Good luck of getting the boat.

BTW, if you have any questions you can always call me.

Chris
905-237-1043
_________________
'87 Wing ~ Wild Thing ~ Hull #15

[david]

That's excellent Chris, Thanks for the offer.
I lived in Richmond Hill for many years before moving up here.
Cheers,
Dave

[Idefix]

Hi Dave,

with regards to surveys: I found back an good little article that explains the why & how & caveats of the process. It's copy-pasted below. And I would definitely recommend a survey, even if a 235 is a relatively simple boat. The surveyor I hired in Vancouver when I bought Idefix was definitely worth the money, plus it helps set the agreed replacement value for insurance purposes.

Good luck with the hunt.

Boudewijn

----

Your inspection will help you determine if the condition of the boat justifies the sellers's asking price, and whether or not you want to move on to the next step in the purchasing process. This should involve making an "offer to purchase" which is conditional on you being satisfied with the condition of the boat as described in a surveyor's report. If your offer is accepted, the boat will be conditionally sold, and you'll be in a position to engage the services of a professional surveyor to produce the necessary report.

After conducting their own inspection of a boat, some people may be tempted to ask if it is really necessary to spend the $250 to $400 it typically costs for a professional survey, especially when they do not yet own. The answer to this question is a definite yes, and this is particularly true for any boat 20 feet in length and over.

There are many reasons for using a surveyor, but first and foremost is that it takes knowledge and skill to properly assess the condition of used boats and to interpret the extent of any problem that may be discovered. For example, the prospective buyer may correctly identify an area of the deck that has a rotting core and delamination problems, and as a result, may decide that the boat is no longer worth considering. However, a professional surveyor may report that the core problem is limited to a small area, that it is relatively easy or inexpensive to repair, that rest of the deck is sound, and that boat otherwise surveys very well. Conversely, the prospective buyer may inspect a boat and be convinced that it is in near perfect condition only to learn from a surveyor that the boat was involved in a severe grounding and has suffered extensive hidden damage in the keel support structure.

Another reason for using a professional surveyor is that most insurance companies will require a recently survey before they issue a marine policy on a boat that is over 10 years old (and will probably require a new survey every ten years thereafter). If you are going to pay for a survey in order to insure the boat, you might as well get it done before closing the deal, and that way you'll have the benefit of knowing exactly what you are buying.

Furthermore, a surveyor is in an excellent position to explain exactly how the boat stacks up to others on the used market. Such information will be rooted in reality rather than a textbook notion of used boats, and it will almost certainly be worth more than what you'll get from your know-it-all brother-in-law, the gang at the club, or even websites such as this one. It is also likely that a surveyor will be able to give you a ball-park estimate of the cost of correcting any problems with the boat, and, if you're thinking of doing the work yourself, an idea of the skills and number of hours that may be required to complete the job.

Finding a Competent Surveyor.

Many of the advantages of having a boat surveyed will only materialize if you are able to find a competent surveyor. Unfortunately, this may not be as easy as it seems because anyone can call themselves a marine surveyor in Canada and the US. Although it appears that the federal government may be starting to look into the need for an organization and standards for surveyors, there is still no official certifying body which sets minimum qualifications for people involved in this business in Canada. A couple of organizations which operate mainly out of the United States perform some of these functions, but membership in these bodies is entirely voluntarily.

The author of this website has commissioned a number of surveys over the years, and can attest to the fact that some so-called surveyors simply produce a nicely detailed description of the boat and equipment while overlooking some fairly obvious defects. Nowadays, many of these surveyors are also quick to pull out their moisture meters, but, here again, it takes skill and experience to obtain meaningful readings and to properly interpret them.

So how does one find a good surveyor? Ask around. Look for an independent surveyor who has been around for a number of years, and is in the business more or less on a full time basis. Avoid people involved in brokerage or the repair businesses, and who may only be doing surveys as a sideline. You may enquire around marinas and clubs about surveyors who have a reputation for being thorough, and even harsh, on the boats they examine. Since they have a vested interest in making sure that boats are well surveyed, insurance companies may be able to come up with names of some good people (but you can't always count on it). Membership in one of the American-based surveyors' organizations is probably a good indicator of competency.

Don't be afraid to phone several surveyors and ask about their qualifications and experience. Although they can be very busy from the beginning of April to the end of June, if you phone during the off season, most reputable surveyors will be happy to talk to you about how they go about their work, and some may even share their views on certain boats on the used market. When shopping around for a surveyor, try to find someone who has experience with the model of boat you are considering. Even a good surveyor will do a better job if they are already familiar with how a particular model was manufactured and its history for potential problems. And finally, if the boat you are looking at is outside the travel range of someone you know is a good surveyor, ask for a referral.

Since there are no official standards or governing organizations for surveyors, their prices can vary considerably. Someone without much experience may only charge $100 for a so-called "insurance survey", which, by definition, is not very thorough. However, the cost of a real "pre-purchase survey" for a production fiberglass sailboat usually runs around $10 to $12 a foot, possibly a bit more for larger boats with a number of complex systems (as of 2001). There can also be extra charges for the surveyor's time and expenses for travelling to the boat, although many will wave this fee if the job is located in an area close to their home base.

Most surveyors will give you a verbal summary of the condition of the boat shortly after completing the survey, and will provide a detailed written report within a few days. Don't be surprised if you are handed a report which lists several dozen items requiring attention. (Good surveyors are even capable of finding a surprising number of shortcomings on a brand new boat.) Many surveyors will issue their report in terms of items requiring immediate attention, matters that should be taken care of in the next year or two, and projects that can be carried out at some point in the future at the owner's discretion.

Although the items requiring immediate attention are obviously the important ones to look after, they often involve problems that are relatively easy to correct. For example, it is not unusual for a surveyor to recommend that the hoses and hose clamps on seacocks and thru hulls be replaced as soon as possible. If, on the other hand, the report does identify a major defect or problem which had not already factored into price of the boat, you may want to renegotiate your offer or see if the seller is willing to make the necessary repairs. Whatever the case, you should seek the guidance of the surveyor in determining the extend to which such a defect or problem should influence your decision on whether or not to purchase the boat.
_________________
Boudewijn
Idefix - Hull #336

[david]

Thanks for the marine survey info Boudewijn.
I have a list of surveyors in the area of the boat and I will be in touch with one tomorrow and hopefully hire him/her to look at the boat. If all goes well, I should have an F235 just in time to wait out the winter! aaarrrrghhh

[north star]

Thinking about buying a used boat. First thing, don't take any advice on a forum! Request any info., pictures from the seller. Request report on used boat, like NADA and history, and the Federal Storm list. Contact the company who made the boat, if in business about history, parts, prices. Then go to see the boat, ask questions, take pictures, looking bilge, any damage, if running, open an check on the sails, look for any parts missing, electrical panels work? Marine heads work? any crack in fiberglass, damage. Talk with other people in marine sales/parts. Find out how cost for sailboat trailer, or transport, cost for crane/lift, cost of storage, slip, and if your boat/trailer allow at your home/apartment. Check with survey cost, different rates for different test, are they listed? Who is going pay the services. In end, how much it will cost you to own and maintain a sailboat by monthly or year. Make you check with wife/husban before you buy the boat. Good Luck...Stephen Ratliff

[Jon]

[nquigley]

I dunno 'bout that Jon - that's how used cars are bought and sold every day.

As he says (in essence): buyer beware! He advises buyers to do their homework, and then, if the deal is right, go for it.

What a seller originally paid for something he is reselling is completely irrelevant to the new sale. In the case of North Star, the seller obviously priced it a bit high because he still has it. If he got it for $700 initially, I say "good for him". If he cleans it up, discloses all known flaws, allows people to see it, and makes a profit reselling it, he's done nothing wrong in my book.

Also, IMO, anyone who bids on something expensive or technically complicated on eBay sight unseen is someone who is willing to take a big risk. It's just that kind of market. If the seller doesn't offer a guaranteed money back option if the item is not substantially as advertised, I wouldn't EVER buy from such a seller.
_________________
Neil Quigley
Ericson 32-2 'Molto Bene'
Knoxville, TN
(ex - F235 #252 'Traveler')

[abstrait]

Well, despite being pretty annoyed at Mr. Ratliff since he threatened me with a lawsuit, I have to agree that his side was not represented, something I mentioned more than a few times. I actually approved his membership months ago, encouraging him to post his side of the story, especially since some of the facts started to roll in. Mr. Ratliff has some health issues that might affect his communications. But, in all honesty, besides the circumspect , "dont listen to advice on forums," which should have read, "take advice on forums with a grain of salt," he is not too far off. Ultimately, after looking at all sides to the story of North Star, I think some were too quick to jump without seeing all sides. I started having my doubts concerning the last deposit complaint the more I learned. And there is nothing at all wrong with someone buying something for $710 and trying to sell for $3000, that is, if they are upfront with the problems and history. While Mr. Ratliff's ad was not packed with every detail, he DID send potential buyers a load of photos, especially later in the game. I wish he had posted earlier, when I first approved his membership. Perhaps after all is said and done, he'll offer more comprehensive details in his ads. He sells a lot of boats and hull #39 was just one of them, one that happened to become the topic for interest here, even BEFORE Mr. Ratliff ever bought the boat.
_________________
<font face="century gothic" size="1">Kelly Holsten � <i>abstrait</i>
'89 "clear" WK | Hull #327
www.beneteau235.com</font><br><br>

[Jon]

[north star]

Again, North Star, I paid $700, paid $20 for the FEDEX payment, paid another $300 in storage at marina, paid another $250 crane loading, trip 800 miles, paid diesel about $240, used a day and half to pick and bring back. Spent 2 days clean up and inspecting. Paid another $300 for a crane to unload at my lot. (Cost of the lot, tax, liences, Ads, answer questions on phone, emails, ) I will say $1810 paid and 5 days and cost my use and maintaince a sailboat trailer. I made less than $1000 not counting all extra cost. If you have or had a boat without a trailer, how much you paid your boat, cost, storage, trailer, transport, cranes/lift, mileage to move the boat, taxs, insurance, and etc. "Jon" and some others you need real, real cost, real work. I sail, work, sell sailboats more than 99% of in this one forum. Are you ready to sell your boat! And go through the comments about the forum and post about your boat and you and never seen the boat and you and make 99% wrong about the boat and you. We see!

[abstrait]

I'll say let's stop this why we're all ahead. Mr. Ratliff does make a good point that there is a lot more involved than the 710 auction outlay, and it was not really taken into account.

Mr Ratliff, the boat's SOLD and off to a new home, on to her next journey, a journey we will continue to follow, long after this sale's forgotten. My advice is to not get in a debate with Jonner as it's not going to be too rewarding from your end, right or wrong. And the posts are getting harder and harder to decipher.

Let agree that perhaps you got a bit of a bum rap in the forum although I will have to say, the text in your ads, whether they were in Texas Sailing or Craigslist, was not aways the most forthcoming with every detail of the boat's past (and you sure did wait a looong time to post after member approval in November). On the other hand, that's RARELY the case with most sales, it's just this one was under close scrutiny due to the awareness of the post Katrina ebay auction.

There have always been two sides to this story. While my interchange with you outside this forum was not always enjoyable, I did want you to have you time to get your side in. So....

Let's wish the new owner(s) of Hull #39 all the best. And Mr Ratliff, good luck to you on future sales. Here's to hoping it's smoother sailing for all involved and perhaps lessons learned all around.
_________________
<font face="century gothic" size="1">Kelly Holsten � <i>abstrait</i>
'89 "clear" WK | Hull #327
www.beneteau235.com</font><br><br>

[Jon]

Again your advice about not using a boat specific forum such as this, is lunacy. Had you come to this forum in the first place with your story & tried to be more of a sailor things may have been different, especially opinions formed by your actions.
Real true sailors don't screw other sailors.
Did you or did you not take a deposit on this boat & not return it when potential buyer found it not to his or her liking?

For the most part the folks on this forum are helpful & will offer help, say like when selling a boat..............go figure.
_________________
Jon
85' Laser 28 #167*Pandora*
87' F235 WK #69 my ex

Lake Ontario NY

[north star]

I received a wire payment of $300 to hold a boat for 10 days, (he wanted get a loan thru his credit union) if not paid in full 14 days he will lose the $300. That is the deal........The buyers after pay the $300 never call me, never email, never mailed, nothing for about 3 months. After 3 months I got a email he was traveling in FL and he was drop off and see the boat. After 4 months, he asking about a survey, sure but you lost the deal about 3 1/2 months ago,,,any person wants a survey is OK with me, but you have to pay all cost with the survey, I am not paying for the survey. Remember, any info about the buyer and seller is not your business. "Jon" did you send all your info about your boat in this forum?

[north star]

Sorry, I am usually too busy to play with forums. I didn't know you had a forum for this beneteau, I deal directly with companys such beneteau, hunter, and companies for parts and services, such mast, rig, boom, sails. After a year I bought the beneteau, I was sign up for beneteau parts, when I check on this forum. Note: never through the year before, never one of the forum , email, phone about, you also put my name/phone number. Why I didn't come on this forum,,,,,I don't know about this forum, and NONE fellow sailors? didn't email or call or invite on this forum. Stephen

[Jon]