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My boat is on ebay - SOLD
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BLACKSHEEP
Rail Meat


Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 72
Location: Indian Lake, OH

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just got back from the bank, no money transfer! So the boat is back on the market. Dirk please do not contact me. My dealings with you are over. Sorry it had to end up like this but I had no control over what you did on your end. I am sorry that you did not get this handled. This is not how I wanted this to go.

Boat is up for grabs!

jon
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abstrait
Site Owner & Administrator


Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 7498
Location: Wrightsville Beach, NC

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BLACKSHEEP wrote:
Dirk please do not contact me. My dealings with you are over.

Lordy, give it a rest, Jon. About 90% of this communication belongs in email (still remember that over the top "Kupe" post).

Nothing taking away the pain on your end to attempt an overseas deal that was bound to be a total headache, though. But No need to add insult to injury here.

I'm sure a few are interested in the US, obviously a much easier transaction to accomplish. Dirk probably should have gone with Quixotic when it was first up for grabs; it came with a trailer and was already on the Eastern seaboard - he would have saved in the long run when you include the hassle and shipping. You did try your best to work with him although the exchange via the forums was not always painless to witness.

I still feel you should have kept the boat for a season or two to get the fun out of it since you had found a great new slip for it. Hope the next sale is painless - It was a GREAT deal.

kh
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<font face="century gothic" size="1">Kelly Holsten � <i>abstrait</i>
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BLACKSHEEP
Rail Meat


Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 72
Location: Indian Lake, OH

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No disrespect, but how would you have handled it? Everything I have done I am pround of and would not change a thing on my end.

This is a public forum I know you "run" it but I think everything that was public should have been. I went back through the thread and I am trying to weed out which ones should and shouldn't be public and I can't find one that shouldn't have been. What 90% do you think should have not been posted.

If you know of a better way of telling a person your dealings with them are over my ears are open. I thought I was nice and to the point. I think some times when people read these post they think people are being harsh and or mean, that is not the case I feel I was just to the point.

No disrespect but to bring KOPE up was the only thing I found in this entire thread to be not worthy of this public forum. I know you run it but just my 2 cents sorry.
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nquigley
Skipper


Joined: 20 Oct 2004
Posts: 1844
Location: Concord YC, Knoxville, TN

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the European F235 owners will step up and help Dirk find a good deal closer to home. We all know Dirk would love to find an F235. How can we help him?
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Ericson 32-2 'Molto Bene'
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Steve Clausen
Navigator


Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 307
Location: Red Hook, New York. Sailing out of Boothbay Harbor, Maine

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry it didn't work out for you and Dirk, Blacksheep. I know this is really none of my business, I almost hesitate to even say anything, but if the deposit was sizable, I hope you will consider refunding most of it. I know you went through a lot of trouble with this, but you need to consider your own accountability in this matter. You could have and should have listed the ebay sale as "for local pick-up only". The both of you trying to do this transatlantic deal of a sail boat that has to be shipped was doomed from the beginning. Professional importing and exporting companies have a hassle and they do it for a living. If there was no written contract detailing who would do what, when and how; and with the ease of mis-communications between parties of different countries and culture, the thing was bound to crash.

And the decisions you made about whether or not to get slips and or use the boat until the deal was done were yours alone, not Dirks.

My 2 cents .. next time list your boat for local pickup only.
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'87 Wing Nut, Hull # 33
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Dirk
I Finally found an F235!


Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 200
Location: Germany, Laboe, Baltic Sea

PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon

you got mail...and money. Transfer is made. It was delayed to my fault cause I didnt know exactly about the pay pal process, sorry
Dirk
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Alveola
'93 ~ EU367 ~ Swing Keel
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abstrait
Site Owner & Administrator


Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 7498
Location: Wrightsville Beach, NC

PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dirk wrote:
Jon, you got mail...and money. Transfer is made. It was delayed to my fault cause I didnt know exactly about the pay pal process, sorry- Dirk

Dirk, I hope you guys are REALLY communicating in ways besides this forum such as email/phone and that you talked first before depositing the whole payment.

It sounded to me like Jon was a done deal after his imposed deadline for payment wasnt met. This post really surprised me so hope it didnt surprise Jon as well (this for your sake). Based on his posts here, I'm not sure if I would have gone ahead with this deal unless things were really straightened out and from the content of his last post, there needed to be a lot of straightening (ie "Dirk please do not contact me. My dealings with you are over").

Hope it works out for you, Dirk; know you have been wanting an F235 for quite a while. It's going to take a lot of effort on your side from the sound of it - Good luck. One positive that jon left open before the last post: At least you have a slip for awhile to work out the details.

kh
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'89 "clear" WK | Hull #327
www.beneteau235.com</font><br><br>
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BLACKSHEEP
Rail Meat


Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 72
Location: Indian Lake, OH

PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the first I have heard from Dirk since my post asking to be paid on page 4! (thank god this is public) I have so many questions for all of you but I am confused on what should be public. I am not trying to throw stones here I am truely wanting to be forum correct. I am just going to let it fly and do the American thing and just ask.

This is the first I have heard from Dirk, but I have heard from many people wanting to know what the deal is. OK here it is. The day after I posted I was finished with Dirk, I got a e-mail saying the money was pending in a pay-pal account. and has been pending ever since. I have talked with pay-pal and they are saying the money has not been sent on his end. It is a basic IOU to pay-pal they will not release the money untill Dirk goes to the bank and releases it. As of 4:16pm EST the money was pending and pay-pal has not recieved payment. Here is my question.

When do I say I have had enough?
Do I block payment and just move on? I am truely at a lose, confused, and want to do the right thing.

Kelly no direspect but I think these are good questions and worthy of this forum. I hope they don't upset you.
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JDF
Tactician


Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 868
Location: Evanston, IL

PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:27 pm    Post subject: the never-ending sale Reply with quote

Dear Jon;
I think you have been extremely patient in this transaction. My understanding of an eBay auction includes the committment to pay up swiftly after the auction is closed. If you can't do that, you shouldn't bid.
I appreciate that this has unfolded in a public forum. It is a good lesson/reminder for all of us that eBay buying/selling still involves TRUST and not everyone has that capability.

I, for one, would like to know what happens in this transaction and how it turns out.
thanks, Jeannette
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Jeannette
Hot Flash
87 fin #64
Lake Michigan @ Chicago
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Dirk
I Finally found an F235!


Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 200
Location: Germany, Laboe, Baltic Sea

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everybody,

some words: I had paid the deposit immediatly, and I have not paid the whole amount until Jon asked me to -true- this was end of July...of course I had rather wanted to pay the rest when I got some receipt from ashipping agency " yes the boat is here", or so. so much for the trust... now I have paid the whole amount with a delay of some days which was my fault, becaus the guys from PayPal deducted the deposit directly from my bank account - not so the rest which I had to transfer- didnt know about that and was away from home a few days, so sorry.
In between I had asked Jon to look for a suitable trailer, tell me its price so I could transfer the amount and he could buy it to get the boat to Baltimore. thats the status. We are still looking for a trailer, meanwhile it seems to be a topic in the community to find a deal for more than just one but several mor trailer. so lets get it done!
Which one is the trailer, who will deliver, how long will it take, whats the price?? I order one!

Ok, hope this helps to understand everything and things WILL work out. And truely hope Americans dont think Germans are not reliable.

Best regards
Dirk
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Alveola
'93 ~ EU367 ~ Swing Keel
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BLACKSHEEP
Rail Meat


Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 72
Location: Indian Lake, OH

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this a joke?

Dirk, I have done everything in my power to help you. Now YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN! If you sent the money fine if not fine, but please stop playing games. Why are you not e-mail me directly or even sending me messages on this site? I am not going to look for another trailer, I am not going to look for another shipper, I am not going to look for another exporter, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN! I would think good and hard before you going any further on this.

When is it that I can say I am done with this deal? If he did send the money I can block it from being deposited but if I just wait another couple of days it will be void because of lack of payment to pay-pal in a fair amount of time. He has not paid he has just given PAY-PAL a promise to pay.

Things to take into consideration:
1) It takes between 8 and 12 weeks to have a trailer made.
2) The season is over OCT. 15th (the boat needs to be moved by then)
3) I have turned 4 BUYERS away saying they would pick it up asap since the post saying our deals are over.
4) What happens if he does pay and never sends a shipper to pick up the boat.
5) how much time has passed, with no payment.
6) Do I continue to turn buyers away because of a promise to pay?

I am sorry to say but I don't think this can be done in the time frame he has now, a month ago and me helping maybe.......and then?

I know everyone here is very smart and helpful so please help me. When I discus this with my partners they look at me like I am speaking GREEK! They can't believe I have not moved forward already. Please any suggestions?
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abstrait
Site Owner & Administrator


Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 7498
Location: Wrightsville Beach, NC

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This really has been a monster quagmire. Well, this was going to be helluva deal in the best of circumstances, needing a leg man on this end to accomplish much. It would be a lot to ask of a good friend, let alone an acquaintance.

Dirk, I don't know. My advice to you is to cancel the deal. In my view, buying a boat without a trailer and with tenuous connections here is next to impossible unless you throw some serious cash to someone on this end as it's just too much to expect from a seller. To be honest, this is hard to accomplish if you are HERE let alone across an ocean. Jon has tried much from this end and seems at the end of his rope.

And if I were Jon, I would seriously consider refunding most if not all of the deposit on the good faith that this was just a deal that was next to impossible to accomplish. I don't think an overseas sale should have been attempted unless there was serious communication. Jon, I know you did your part and I know you specified that the deposit was non-refundable, but since many here helped you on your own quest, I personally think you might consider giving Dirk his deposit back (perhaps keep $100 for the headache involved if need be).

You asked for advice and I think this is probably the best way out for all involved, leaving mostly good feelings. I agree that it would actually be more than nice on your end considering all the effort and time, yet it's probably some good karma involved considering the help you received as well. Again, on the deposit refund, this would obviously be a magnanimous gesture on your part, but one that seems justified.

Dirk, I wouldn't attempt to buy a boat overseas unless you have a lucid plan for getting it to your doorstep/slip. If bent on getting an F235 from North America to save ducats, I would look for an East Coast boat near shipping channels. I would also try for a model with a trailer to save the massive headache involved. That boat located in NJ that another member just picked up would have been far more suitable. Sadly, I just think trying for this deal might be bighting off more than anyone can chew, unless you hired somebody to carry out the details on this end.

This is just my opinion, obviously. Both parties are free to handle as they see fit. Just hoping that something good can come from this. At the very least, I think the boat will ultimately find a good home at a fair price.

kh
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<font face="century gothic" size="1">Kelly Holsten � <i>abstrait</i>
'89 "clear" WK | Hull #327
www.beneteau235.com</font><br><br>


Last edited by abstrait on Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dirk
I Finally found an F235!


Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 200
Location: Germany, Laboe, Baltic Sea

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kelly

thank you for the good advice. Think you are right.
Firstly Jon offered me to help getting the boat to Baltimore. Then we got stuck in getting a trailer. So, if Jon agrees I will retire from the deal and also hope he will send the money back. reasonable amount deducted for the work he did is ok, of course.

The Quixotic deal might have worked, yes, because its located near Baltimore anf had a trailer coming with it. Agree.

Jon, you wrote you got many buyers for the boat. I think its easy to get lot of more money out of it than those 5,5 K, so I hope you will refund my money.

Hope we will stay tuned although.

Best regards
Dirk
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Alveola
'93 ~ EU367 ~ Swing Keel
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Jon
First 235 Crazy


Joined: 20 Oct 2004
Posts: 6813
Location: lake ontario

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ahhhhh to be a witness to the ole beating a dead horse

wish there was something I could do!

wait....maybe there is?????????????


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Jon
85' Laser 28 #167*Pandora*
87' F235 WK #69 my ex

Lake Ontario NY
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BLACKSHEEP
Rail Meat


Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 72
Location: Indian Lake, OH

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats a great picture!!!!!!!!!!!!
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abstrait
Site Owner & Administrator


Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 7498
Location: Wrightsville Beach, NC

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blacksheep, what finally happened with this deal? Did you refund a portion of the deposit to Dirk? IS the boat back on the market?

kh
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<font face="century gothic" size="1">Kelly Holsten � <i>abstrait</i>
'89 "clear" WK | Hull #327
www.beneteau235.com</font><br><br>
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Dirk
I Finally found an F235!


Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 200
Location: Germany, Laboe, Baltic Sea

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kelly

to answer your question: Blacksheep refuses to pay back the deposit although I said he should deduct some reasonable amount for his expenses (telephone etc)....

I can post his answers, but really dont want because they are quite harsh...

thanks & regards
Dirk
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Alveola
'93 ~ EU367 ~ Swing Keel
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abstrait
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am going to weigh in on this since I am very disappointed in the result of this transaction. I feel this is fitting considering most of the dealings on this boat were in full view here, even before Blacksheep bought her.

The good news is that Jon "blacksheep" DID sell the boat to another buyer and had a trailer built. He is actually delivering the boat to Chicago for the buyer. The buyer seems to be a very good person and is excited about the new purchase. I'm happy for her as well and glad someone got this boat. She is looking forward to getting out on the water.

On the other hand, I am sad for Dirk and even more seriously disappointed in blacksheep. I think the handling of this sale was done in a poor way on both sides. Dirk is surely not without fault in the matter; indeed, he should have had a distinct plan to bring the boat to his location before even bidding on the auction.

On the other hand, the fact that when all is said and done, Jon has elected to KEEP $1000 of Dirk's deposit, effectively equaling the entire deposit, this after selling the boat for the full amount, is really unfortunate and not an act of good karma, this from a person that was dealt GREAT help from many on this forum. Indeed, without this forum, he wouldn't have been able to GET this boat or had the new sale.

In my view, Blacksheep should keep a portion of the deposit equaling the problems. Personally speaking, I would have never kept someone's deposit of $1000, especially since the sale went through right after with another buyer. I think both parties showed bad judgment. But only one party showed ill will and a lack of understanding. It's one thing to hold a few hundred dollars for the problems and quite another to keep $1000 even after selling the boat for the same amount within the same time frame.

I hope others weigh in here. Again, Blacksheep was a person that received an abundance of help in getting his F235 through this forum. I personally think holding $1000 while getting the same purchase price from another buyer is not in the good nature of this community/fellowship.

kh
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'89 "clear" WK | Hull #327
www.beneteau235.com</font><br><br>
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Nologic
Skipper


Joined: 23 Oct 2004
Posts: 1353
Location: Lake Murray, SC

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I hope others weigh in here.


I do not think any of us have the right to judge either of these gentlemen and what they should or should not do. Other posts in this forum have discussed how easy it is to misunderstand an intended message with the writtten word verses the spoken word. I think that is very true for this case. There is no way that all of the details of this transaction can be made available here. I do not think they should be made public. There are rules and guidelines set forth by Ebay that would apply to the transaction. If Dirk has any legitimate complaint, he can go through that avenue instead of posting here.

Jon has shown great restraint in not making this a "he said, you said" pissing match. I respect him for that. I also respect his judgment in his own business dealings.
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abstrait
Site Owner & Administrator


Joined: 16 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nologic wrote:
Jon has shown great restraint in not making this a "he said, you said" pissing match. I respect him for that. I also respect his judgment in his own business dealings.

Blacksheep sent me the entire email exchange between them and wanted to post it here, this before Dirk's last reponse above. Although I have not "heard" the conversations between them, the entire written exchange has been made viewable to me. I posted this response after weighing both sides and reading the comments/responses including the tone in which they were delivered. While I generally agree with your response, a good majority of this entire sale was carried out with all to witness. In addition, the forum was actively involved in the acquisition of this boat by Blacksheep, not to mention the followup sale.

kh
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<font face="century gothic" size="1">Kelly Holsten � <i>abstrait</i>
'89 "clear" WK | Hull #327
www.beneteau235.com</font><br><br>


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Dirk
I Finally found an F235!


Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 200
Location: Germany, Laboe, Baltic Sea

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not respect a decision to say the deal is over, I dont want to sell anymore BUT will keep the whole deposit!!


regards
Dirk
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Alveola
'93 ~ EU367 ~ Swing Keel
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Daryl
Tactician


Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 570
Location: Truman Lake, MO

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doggonit, Kelly! This is the third time this month I've been forced to agree with you.

While Sue has a valid point about a transaction between parties, the parties themselves have chosen to make this a public spectacle on the forum.

Within my personal understanding of how the world works, a deposit is a warranty against the seller's monetary loss should a buyer default. Since another sale for comparable amounts followed closely, it's hard to see the seller's damage.

Was there aggravation and general PITA symptoms? You betcha! In my opinion, a unbiased reader would come to the conclusion that both parties have contributed to a whole world of confusion and conflict. Initially, again as I see it, the problem was naivity on both sides as to the complexity of such a transaction. Then tempers flared.

I would hope that both sides can now step back and if not shake hands with heartfelt mutual apologies, at least tacitly acknowledge this as a doomed deal from the get go. Jon, for whatever little it is worth, I am asking you to refund Dirk's deposit.
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Jon
First 235 Crazy


Joined: 20 Oct 2004
Posts: 6813
Location: lake ontario

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nologic wrote:
Quote:
I hope others weigh in here.


I do not think any of us have the right to judge either of these gentlemen and what they should or should not do. Other posts in this forum have discussed how easy it is to misunderstand an intended message with the writtten word verses the spoken word. I think that is very true for this case. There is no way that all of the details of this transaction can be made available here. I do not think they should be made public. There are rules and guidelines set forth by Ebay that would apply to the transaction. If Dirk has any legitimate complaint, he can go through that avenue instead of posting here.

Jon has shown great restraint in not making this a "he said, you said" pissing match. I respect him for that. I also respect his judgment in his own business dealings.


BULLSHIT! I'll pass judgement....
Jon give Dirk back some of his money, keep $300 bucks for your pain & suffering..............but $1000? If it was a deposit on a $60,000 sailboat yeah, but we are talking a F235 not a F36.7.
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85' Laser 28 #167*Pandora*
87' F235 WK #69 my ex

Lake Ontario NY
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nquigley
Skipper


Joined: 20 Oct 2004
Posts: 1844
Location: Concord YC, Knoxville, TN

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too expect Jon to refund the majority of Dirk's deposit. I have told him this privately too. Now I hear that he is planning to keep a $1000 deposit, AND is even trying to squeeze Dirk for even more $$ to cover some imagined slip rental fees. This is totally dishonest, to say the least: Jon told me when he borrowed my trailer that his family (his father or his brother as I recall) owns the marina in which his boat would be moored and that he would not have to pay for his slip. It's attached to a restaurant they own, on a lake which has an island in it that they own too! Jon has a successful Skateboard and Snowboard business in Columbus OH (two stores, one downtown and one right beside the campus at OSU), so he is certainly not short of $$. I'm getting very concerned about Jon's ethics.
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Neil Quigley
Ericson 32-2 'Molto Bene'
Knoxville, TN
(ex - F235 #252 'Traveler')


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mquigley
1000 posts? Man Overboard!


Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Give the deposit back. The whole thing reeks of bad karma.
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